"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:INKdnTbve_j5NmPanZ2dnUVZ_t-nnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Joe L" <I'm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:z4uLj.169971$pM4.168104@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> news:3sSdnXYYjNChcmDanZ2dnUVZ_quhnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> "Joe L" <I'm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>> news:nTaLj.167159$pM4.128123@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> "Arny Krueger" >
>>>>> If you knew anthing about electrical
>>>>> engineering.....................>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the terminology is different in the US, but here
>>>> electrical engineer is not the same as an electronics
>>>> engineer.
>>>
>>> Depends what segment of the job market, you are talking.
>>>
>>> In vocational training, electrical technicans and
>>> electronic technicans have different training.
>
>> Hmmm, didn't I just say that?
>
> That was the setup for the following paragraph:
>
>>> In academics, an EE program trains people for either
>>> kind of profession. The university I graduated from and
>>> did post-graduate work at didn't even formally
>>> distinguish between mechanical engineers, electrical
>>> engineers, civil engineers or computer engineers. They
>>> give you a degree in Engineering, and that is that.
>
>>>> Although I make no claims to be an electronics
>>>> tech anymore, I did work as one for 4years for a small
>>>> company called Bell & Howell.
>
>>> I've flipped back and forth being being a technican and
>>> being an engineer for my whole life. Right now I'm
>>> functioning more like a technican, but there's
>>> engineering and management behind everything I do.
>
>> I tend to regard my jobs & skills as being creative
>> based, the training is just what brings me to the table.
>> That also is reflected in the im****tance one's
>> degrees/academic training is afforded when applying for a
>> gig in the audio & musical careers. ie;the background is
>> only im****tant if one's *got* the creative chops.
>
> Do you mean creative or artistic?
>
> There's a common misconception that certain occupations are creative and
> others are not.
>
>>> I've earned a good living doing one or the other, or
>>> being a manager.
>>>> But anyway, even back when I studied, if one wanted to
>>>> go into audio, they'd not take the electrical engineer
>>>> pgms, but the electronics one's.
>>
>>> That is very much characteristic of vocational training,
>>> as opposed to academic training. I've done them both.
>
>> Again, not sure what education is like where you are, but
>> here any govt recognized pgm has a split between theory
>> and hands on Lab work.
>
> In the U.S. universities are not accredited by the government.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_accreditation
>
>> That's for all trades, not just
>> electronics. I can't see teaching a mechanic all about
>> balancing a motor, but never actually having them lift
>> the hood. Even night courses here have the same
>> requirements.
>
> In U.S. terminology, you're talking about occupational training, not
> academic training.
>
>> My point though was that if you're studying power systems
>> as in an electrical pgm (as opposed to an electronics pgm)
>> you're not prepping yourself for a career in audio.
>
> In the US people who have academic degrees in audio often have very
little
> practical experience with whatever field in engineering they take their
> first job in, prior to taking that first job. Furthermore, a person with
> an academic degree in engineering may move around between several
> subdisciplines of engineering during their career.
>
> For example, the automotive industry has a fair number of engineers who
> work with audio, sound, and acoustics. But, some may be involved with
> engine and exhaust noise, others may be involved with noise from the
road,
> and others may be designing automotive sound systems, and some may be
> involved with testing. In some sense they are all about audio, but how
> does a guy in engineering school prepare himself for one of those jobs
> other than learning about the common areas of engineering (physics,
> thermodynamics, chemistry, math)? He may not know which of any of those
> jobs he will be working in until after he graduates!
>
>> Sure there's a lot of overlap, but i wouldn't take my gear to
>> the electrician down the street to get repaired.
>
> In the US, people with academic degrees in engineering are not generally
> repairing equipment. Jobs like those go to people who have occupational
> training, not academic training.
>
>>> it is well
>>> known that an academic degree in engineering needs to be
>>> followed up with lots of OJT if the engineer is to be
>>> effective.
>
>> Yes I've been served in restaurants by people with far
>> more education than myself, that's not news.
>
> That is not what I'm talking about.
>
>>>> It's just a nice related
>>>> skill. But I'd think the electronics pgms to be a lot
>>>> more related than that of an electrical engineer pgm.
>
>>> Under all of engineering are the basic laws of physics.
>>> My actual academic focus was control system engineering,
>>> and we were taught that pretty much the same math
>>> underlies all of the technologies, and if you understand
>>> that, the rest is OJT. In the 40 or so years since that,
>>> I've never seen an exception.
>
>> Sure basics are basics, but nice to actually study the
>> circuits that one's gonna be involved in. That's all I
>> was saying.
>
> That rarely if ever happens to people taking academic degrees in
> engineering in the US.
>
>> But beyond education,
>
>> IME, I've also noticed that no matter how hard one tries,
>> there are some people that just do the left brain/ right
>> brain thing better. What I mean is that during their
>> formative years when their brain was still developing,
>> they did a skill or activity that involved using the
>> creative side or the brain at the same time as the
>> logical side. Something that required total interaction.
>> Much like learning to play music, or maybe an intelligent
>> s****t or whatever, these individuals learned to access
>> both sides of the brain TOGETHER, at the same time. And
>> no matter how hard one tries, that seems to be a very
>> im****tant skill to have developed early on.
>
> Yes.
>
>> Some people display a real lack of that skill (in an
>> occupation that demands it) and no amount of degrees in
>> the past is gonna bridge that 'think fast on the feet'
>> quality, or creative thinking without being bogged down
>> by all the theory. They just don't think laterally, and
>> it's either one or the other. For me, the best sound
>> engineers (and musicians) tend to have the theory down
>> pat, but operate on a very creative level. You think Jeff
>> Beck is thinking about the mixolydian scale while
>> soloing, or Daniel Langois is thinking about proximity
>> effect while mixing? That stuff is waaay back in the
>> mind, and internalized. Sure they know the theory, but
>> kind of look at you sideways, if asked to explain it. To
>> them the creative and theory, don't separately exist.
>
> I think that the most talented engineers and technicans have learned how
> to think both intuitively and rationally.
>
S you're saying that universities and trade schools in the US are turning
out graduates with absolutely 0% field experience? My comment about
being
served by a degreed waiter it's that far off then. Wow, that's a real rip
off considering the high costs of education in that country. I find it
hard
to believe anyone would come out with a dregree with NO lab experience and
then have to apprentice AFTER obtaining a degree. No wonder all the jobs
are
going to Asia, you guys are a bunch of well educted idiots.
JL
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